Get Down to the Core of Google's Core Web Vitals Webinar replay & transcript

Begin Transcript:

 Russ (00:00:01):

Hello. Hello everybody. Welcome to our webinar today on Core Web Vitals updates. Today there are two of us going to have a conversation about core web vitals. My name is Russ Jeffrey. I'm the director of strategic integrations. I'm one of our resident experts here at Duda on core web vitals and kind of been following the industry really closely for the past several years and really excited today to be joined by Jason Barnard from Calico cube on our webinar today. So, Jason, welcome.

Jason (00:00:36):

Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. As you can see from the gray beard, I've been studying the internet for a long time. I started in 1998, which is a long time ago now

Russ (00:00:48):

I think so. And Jason, we wanted to start off and just give a little background on who you are and a little bit about kind of what, what you do on a day-to-day basis.

Jason (00:00:58):

Yeah, well I call myself the brand third guy and the idea is the brand SERP is what Google shows when your audience Googles your brand name. And I honestly think this is vastly underestimated and John Mueller, the other day tweeted that he thinks that my work on brand search is vastly underestimating. So I'm terribly pleased about that. And so this is my brand. So I've been working on mine for the last seven years. I also work on brand sets for clients and caddy cube is actually a brand search platform that helps you with that. So I'm going to tell my story, who I am, what I do through my brand search. So I'm the brand SERP guy. If you look at the next slide, I'm also the knowledge panel guy. I look at knowledge panels and incredibly interested by how Google understands the world knowledge panels, being Google's representation of how it has understood facts in the world.

Jason (00:01:45):

So it's incredibly important for fundamentally important for what's going to come next in SEO and talking, talking, communicating with Google. Next line. I have two decades in digital, as I said, I started in 1998 and I actually started as a blue dog and account team built a site for kids on the blue dog on the left. And my ex-wife is a yellow coauthor on the blank. And you can see that on the right-hand side, but it doesn't dominate the brand SERP because my current job dominates the brand setup as we will see I've got a group, good luck, groovy podcast, intelligent, interesting, and fun. I interviewed lots of great people in digital marketing. They've taught me absolutely loads, 176 episodes. If you want to go and listen to them all, it would take you several days. And the next one, I also am a speaker and host, as you can see, obviously size, probably a bit of a redundant slide.

Jason (00:02:35):

Doesn't tell you anything you haven't already realized going around the world. I used to go around the world or digital nomad traveling around the world, speaking at conferences, doing my interviews for my podcast, with people at Rand Fishkin and yells devout from Yoast. Next up, I'm also a writer author. I write for search engine journal, search engine, land SEMrush, and various other platforms, SEO, ranking, word lifts, or wonderful, wonderful publications published my delightful articles. And the next slide I am a teacher and coach. I teach run SERPs and knowledge panels, and I've just built this platform called Katie cube pro, which is the next slide, which hasn't actually got onto my brands yet. So that's a bit of a miss on my part, but I started literally a month ago. So I'll get out there in the next few weeks. That's a plan for this weekend. My Saturday and Sunday will be spent trying to get catty cube pro SAS platform onto my brands so that I can tell the full story properly. There you go. That's who I am.

Russ (00:03:30):

Great. Thanks Jason. And super excited to have you on board today. And I think we're going to have a really, really fun conversation today about kind of where core web metals is, where it's going and kind of what's going on.

Jason (00:03:39):

So yeah, it does look like, I don't know about called web vitals, but actually I do with 20, 20 years in the industry, I've been looking at all this stuff. I just happened to specialize today in brands. So if I'm defending myself, yeah,

Russ (00:03:50):

Absolutely. And I'll, I'll back you up from, from our, from our conversations. You, you, you definitely know what you're talking about.

Jason (00:03:55):

Okay. Thank you very much. That's very kind, Russ, you know what you're talking about too? This is terrible. Love him. How wonderful.

Russ (00:04:02):

So, so cool guys, we'll, we'll, we'll cover today. Those are topics for our discussion. One is what is core web vitals? What we'll talk about kind of what, what the actual metrics are and what it means how you measure what a good experience looks like and what is a good experience on the web? Where does where's Google kind of pulling these core web vitals from you know, w w we'll discuss kind of some of the problems that we see in the industry. It's, it's a very confusing topic and it's really difficult topic to solve. So we'll, we'll kind of dive in there. W we also want to discuss the long-term impacts of core web vitals on the industry and on the market and then also how it, how it, how it has already, and, and will continue to impact SERP results as well.

Russ (00:04:42):

A little bit of housekeeping. One, we will have time for questions at the end. So if you do have questions, please go ahead and ask those in the questions box. We have a few folks from the Duda side ready to answer questions and also kind of surface some questions up as well. So please ask those, and then we will get to those right at the end of the webinar, we also are recording this and we will be sending out the recording to anyone who registered. So if you want to forward this on to a friend or colleague you'll, you'll get that link. Usually we send it about a day after the actual webinar happens, so our team can process it and upload it and all that fun stuff. And with that being said let's go ahead and, and let's, let's jump into our discussion today. So let, let the first kind of topic for us to discusses is what our core web vitals. Jason, do you want to give us just a quick overview of what these are?

Jason (00:05:37):

Well, I like to look at Colbert Bibles of Google, attempting to stop focusing on pure speed and start to focus on its perception of how our user experiences with a page. So perceived speed is perhaps a good way of putting it your, the, the, the real kind of techie person, and you're going to it much better than that. But I think as a human being, I would say what Google is trying to measure is people's perception of how fast your website is. And if that, and I'm going to use the experience it gives in that context. And the next slide, I think, shows that really, really clearly. I think it's a, it's a, it's a lovely, lovely way of showing it that Google it's not Russ or me. But it does show how web co-ed vitals fits into the speed aspects of Google's measurement of your website. There are that at the top of that, I'll let you explain that because I think you're probably better at it.

Russ (00:06:31):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Google's core web battles here. There one is, you know, for a long time, we've known that Google prioritizes speed and speed has been a ranking factor, but we never had any real metrics to measure that on. You know, Google just kind of wishy washy really said speed mattered. And now we're getting real tests and real metrics from Google that can, can be measured. And like you said, Jason, these are metrics that they focus on the perceived experience on the actual website. They're not the total loading time. They're not looking at every single aspect of performance of a website. There are three metrics that Google has decided to essentially prioritize and say, here are the core web vitals metrics for anyone that's looked at a page speed report or a lighthouse report you'll know that they have other metrics that they use as well as part of this.

Russ (00:07:25):

But these are the three that, that Google has, has really kind of set in stone as, as what they're calling the core web vitals in, in the market. And just quickly what the, what those three are what we'll cover. This one is LCP, which is how quickly do I see content? What is the, how long does it take for the largest piece of content on the site to actually actually load? So that's what the largest content for pain is. The second one is FID which is first input delay. It's basically how long after I tap, does it take for the screen to respond? And then the final one is CLS or acumen of layout shifts, which is when the page is loading, are things kind of shifting around on the page directly. And so each one of these has their own metrics to hit a good score on top of it. Yeah.

Jason (00:08:13):

That kind of thing. We've got so many acronyms going on. We've got CW V LCP, FID CLS. And just looking at that screen when it's actually spelled out for you, it makes so much sense in the screen before. So it's all about loading interactivity and the comfort of the experience on the page, which is left to right, what we're looking at which just makes it more understandable, but people can't help having these really crazy acronyms that confuse us.

Russ (00:08:41):

It's, it's, it's totally true. It kind of comes from the engineering culture at Google, right, where they're, they're focused on solely just coming up with these, you know, these metrics that they try and encompass a lot of things within these metrics as part of it. And they just ended up a little bit with this acronym soup. I completely agree. It's, it's, it's, it's quite confusing. And Google now has, you know, three, four, five different testing tools out there of like how to measure speed on a website. And it's not clear which one they use where and what people should be using and, and how how this has kind of leveraged across the industry. You know, what, we'll get into this a little bit later about how the actual speed comes through and, and kind of the differences between, you know, the, the, the lab environment and the real environment in the live environment from, from a usage perspective, it's, it's pretty confused.

Jason (00:09:32):

Brilliant, but what's nice about this particular set, is it focuses on perceived user experience, right?

Russ (00:09:39):

Yeah. And, and, and I think, I think that's the right thing to focus on. Right. and it kind of the right area to be okay, great. This is focusing on how people actually perceive it on top of a website, and this kind of gets in right into our next topic, Jason, which is what is a good experience and, and how, how do you measure that, that good experience directly on, on the site itself?

Jason (00:10:03):

Right. Well, I mean, one of the big problems that Google would always have is how do they measure our perception of things? There's a big difference between how a machine can measure it, how literally fast, it actually shows how literally fast you can actually interact and how literally it moves around and the perception that people have about. And I remember I met maybe eight or nine years ago. There was a whole test thing going on on the internet. And I played on it for hours on end and wasted so much, so much work in time. And they would show you two websites and they would say which one loads faster, and you would click on the button. You take that one, that one. And if they did that complete at scale, and what they then did was push that into their machine learning and figure out what is important for us as human beings, in terms of perception to saying that is faster than that, regardless of whether, technically it is actually faster or not. Right.

Russ (00:10:58):

Right. And, and this just like you're saying, right, this is actually what, what is prioritizing? They're saying that great. We want you to show something on the screen as quickly as possible. We would actually rather you have a loading experience to show that something has happened rather than waiting five seconds for everything to be ready, and then just display everything all at once on the website itself. And that's exactly what, what you're saying, that, that those tests probably proved that. Great. you know, you want to make sure that you have some indication that something is happening. You're giving visual feedback to users as the site is loading. That's something that's happening. I think we, we've all experienced, you know, kind of the, the white screen of the web, where you go to a website and it just sits there. And you know, it doesn't load for a long time. And that's just because, you know, the, usually it's, the technical thing is JavaScript is preventing the page loading and it's being what's called from her actually rendering the page. And this especially happens on a lot of mobile devices and a lot of lower powered mobile devices. So,

Jason (00:12:02):

But just talking of which a couple of things, one of which is we forget that as users, we get incredibly frustrated after even half a second, let alone a whole second of just looking at a screen, waiting for something to happen, we've forgotten what we were doing. Which as human beings, we've got a very short attention span. And apparently that isn't actually getting shorter, although we tend to suggest that it might, it isn't, but as human beings, when you're coming over from Google, you see that white screen for more than a half a second, you've forgotten what you were looking for. And as psych towners, we should be aware that as users, we're very critical of that. And as site owners, we need to meet that expectation. And the other point I would make is not, it's not because you're sitting in your office and it's loading incredibly fast that it's loading incredibly fast for everybody.

Jason (00:12:45):

Number one, and number two, Google, isn't actually measuring it on your, on a really fast internet speed. It's, it's judging it on an internet speed that it considers to be normal. And if you think about people, for example, in India, who were on 3g networks, Google actually measuring all of this as if the person was in India, because that is a vast, vast number of people. We in the, in the, in the, in the, in Europe and America, with these in big cities with these fast internet, connections are totally spoiled and we fail or forget that. I certainly forget that, you know, not everybody has that experience. Even the countryside in France, it can be really slow.

Russ (00:13:26):

It's, it's, it's totally true. And, and, you know, it's going to vary just like you were saying, where not everyone's always on, on wifi and not, not everyone actually has a fast internet, right? The average cell connection today is at a 3g speed right around the world. And it's like a fast 3g speed. Not everyone is on 4g, let alone 5g yet around the world. 

Jason (00:13:48):

Even if you think my audience is actually on fast networks and fast in cities and it's B2B in Paris or in in New York, that doesn't actually matter from Google's perspective, because it's still judging you as though your users were on a very slow connection. So Google's opinion of the site speed of your website affects how it ranks you rather than the actual use of your audience.

Russ (00:14:12):

Yeah. And this gets into kind of one of the interesting points that I see about Lighthouse, or, you know, when you are the page speed insights tool directly, just like we're saying here, the page speed insights, tool tests on one, a lower power device. So a, a lower power CPU, a lower amount of Ram, also a lower connection speed as well. And so a lot of people will go to the lighthouse test and get a, you know, a mediocre score on, on top of their websites where it's great lighthouse gives you a 50 out of a hundred. But the reality is that it's a pretty stringent test because Google is trying to simulate those real world use cases. I think it's, it's absolutely the right thing that Google is doing and pushing people to optimize for the slower devices.

Russ (00:14:59):

But one thing that actually do see from our internal data is that, you know, we have a lot of customers in the U S and in Europe and on our websites, the real world visits are actually much faster than Lighthouse is actually reporting. So that like with core web vitals core web vitals is measured with what's called field data, real world data. And so we see websites actually passing the web vitals test, but scoring a 50 on lighthouse, which Google would rank in the red on directly. And so it's one of those interesting things where, you know, core web vitals itself does matter from, from only kind of the real world visitors, but the testing tool is quite stringent and pushes people really far, which I think is the right thing to do. But at the same time, it might be unrealistic just based on who the users are that actually visit the site and come up with it.

Jason (00:15:54):

Right. Yeah. It can be scary and it isn't necessary to always get people. That's right. That's right.

Russ (00:16:03):

Great. I'm going to jump over, just go onto our next topic here. You know, what are some of the difficulties that agencies developers and kind of site owners face Jason, what's your experience here?

Jason (00:16:15):

Well I'm a very, very small agency. So I actually tend to get called into relatively few sites and they say, what can we do? And I analyze it on a one-by-one one-on-one basis and figure out what it is that they need to do specifically for that image, that the big first largest content for paint to come up, figure out what that is, getting them to speed that up, then get them to make sure that people can interact with the page quickly, and then make sure that things aren't moving around once it's all charged Charles Logan, sorry, which is the, the three things that you need to look at. And I'm incredibly intrigued by how you do that scale, which is what do does, how does do to do what do to does

Russ (00:16:58):

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's complex and it's, it's difficult to do it, to do it really at scale, you know, due to we're, we're building a generic product and a generic platform for, for agencies to build on top of and do the, you know, we're taking care of almost every aspect and not every aspect of it, but a lot of aspects of core web vitals as part of what we do. So out of the box, you know, due to implements all of, kind of the best practices that you would expect, we automatically compress images, resize them, even change the format to web P automatically and, and serve those. We take care of all of the standard caching policies on your CDNs and make sure that things load quickly globally. And, and one of the really interesting things that we do is we actually when you, when you publish a site with Duda, we actually scan website and identify all of the above the fold content, and we take all of those styles and we put it into the actual page.

Russ (00:17:58):

And what that does is it prioritizes the loading of all of the above the fold content from, from our websites. And so this is something that's automated and baked into the platform. And so our engineers have spent a lot of time just thinking of, okay, for this specific use case, with this specific, you know, map widget that exists on the site, how can we improve the loading experience? How can we improve the loading experience with this header and this structure, and make sure that it's fast and it's incredibly difficult. And it requires a lot of focus and a lot of kind of priorities. And it's been a topic that we've been investing in for, for seven or eight years. And, you know, I think, I think this is, this is one area where agencies more broadly kind of struggle is it's not just on them to fix these problems, right.

Russ (00:18:42):

It is on the CMS providers, it's on the Dudas, it's on the WordPress's, it's on the, you know, the, the whoever, you know, platform you're building on top of it's on their toolset to also optimize for these things and make this kind of core to the product and core to the experience of, of building as a whole. And so we see people who scan their site through, you know, page speed, and then they're not really sure what to do next, because page speed is a very technical tool. And isn't great at giving recommendations specific for WordPress or specific for Duda or specific for Shopify or whatever tool out there you're using. Yeah.

Jason (00:19:19):

Yeah, sure. I mean, what I've seen is WordPress have actually improved quite a lot, but then with WordPress, you have that terrible problem with plugin bloat and people adding plugins all over the place for bells and whistles. And that's kind of, one of the disadvantages of these kind of open-source platforms is you get lots of control and it's free, and you can do lots of things with it, which is great, wonderful, but there is a danger that you run down those roads. And I, I tend to tell clients, stick as close to the core as you possibly can, because that's where you're going to benefit from all the work that the people who are actually developing the entire thing I are going to be bringing to you.

Russ (00:19:51):

Yeah. Well, one actually interesting kind of data point here, and I'm going to switch slides here is due to a data survey back in March asking web professionals broadly, whether they're ready for core web idols and what they think the impact is going to be. And so what you'll see here is that roughly 90% and above of web pros, kind of think that Core Web Vitals is going to have a moderate or significant impact on the web as a whole. And this will lead us into our next topic here in a second. But conversely a lot of web, a lot of agencies and web professionals actually, haven't done a lot to actually prepare and get ready for this. And, and I think there's just, there's this big gap between real designers and real actual implementation and the technical details that either Google is putting out and, and kind of are on the market ready to go for, for a lot of these things. Think there's a pretty big gap in the market from a knowledge and an education perspective there. So you'll see our data says that, you know, more than 50% of web pros have done nothing to optimize for, for core web vitals across the whole and, and even, even less have done something, but not enough,

Jason (00:21:03):

So, right. Which is a terrible human kind of fault is we know it's important, but we don't necessarily do anything about that.

Russ (00:21:12):

It's, it's so true. 

Jason (00:21:14):

I mean, from an, from an agency point of view, working for clients, a lot of the time I say this is really important, but then there's not necessarily the reactivity or the realization that this is something that not only helps them in that ranking with Google, but we've also helped their find experience, their user experience and therefore outcome comfort, presumably.

Russ (00:21:34):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's one of those really hard trade-offs from a priority perspective for a lot of development teams, you're, you're often having to prioritize, am I optimizing for my conversion rate? Am I not getting that next page up on my website? Am I not improving X other thing on my service, on my tool? And you, instead you spend time kind of more in the background, something that's not user-facing, it's not visible. And you, you kind of have to prioritize that backend work from a development perspective to make it happen. And I think that's, that's a hard trade off for a lot of companies to make, just because it's, it's not the most glamorous type of thing. Cause it's, it's not as apparent for so many people.

Jason (00:22:16):

Cool. And, and you know, you say, Oh, show your boss. This is, I look at this brilliant view thing we've just done. We spent three weeks working on it and the boss says, I actually can't see a difference. It looks exactly the same to me. And that is a very difficult sell because you can't physically see it.

Russ (00:22:33):

Well, especially when the boss is either viewing it on their laptop or they're just recently to buy an iPhone that's brand new and has the fastest speed and they're on wifi. They don't see the difference. What's out there absolutely.

Jason (00:22:46):

Until they go on holiday to some tiny Island in the middle of nowhere. And they suddenly realize that it's really slow and get very frustrated exactly. Extend the boss on holiday, that's the solution.

Russ (00:22:58):

And then send them the website to prove. Exactly. Yeah.

Jason (00:23:04):

Okay.

Russ (00:23:05):

Cool. You know, one thing I just want to call this out you know, what vitals sets a pretty high bar across the web. And so we, we see this know pretty frequently that only roughly 20% of websites on mobile actually kind of meet this good criteria across the web today. So if you are not passing the lead vitals, that that is absolutely okay. And, and you're in good company with, with many of the websites on the web today. So just keep that in mind that this, this is, you know, it's, it's a high bar and, you know, I think Jason and Nick, both you and I agree that this is the right thing to do. It's just a, it's just a hard one to do.

Jason (00:23:42):

It sounds like I want to do it. It's a high bar and it's on mobile. And a lot of this is despite the fact Google has been saying mobile first, and even within our traffic, when we see on our site, we see that it's mobile first in our everyday lives. It's mobile first for us too. And our kids, especially, I would imagine in my case, because I've got the great beer, but we, we see all of this and we know all of this. And once again, it's that human fault, what we know we should be doing and what we know we do do in real life, we don't necessarily implement for ourselves

Russ (00:24:14):

Abs. Absolutely. cool. And, and, and our, our final topic here is, is kind of what do we think the impact is going to be on, on surfers alts? And I'll, I'll start off your Jason and then I'll hand it off to you. You know, I think one of the things that is a longer term trend that we've seen from Google is that they broadly know that the mobile web today is too slow. And that's one of the reasons they're pushing out core web vitals is just because the, is that when users click on a website, they're much more likely to bounce back on mobile and come back to Google. And so Google has gone down this path of delivering search results directly on the mobile page. I'm trying to surface that information quicker because Google knows they can deliver a good experience. On top of that, I think this is one of the factors that really plays into some of these positions, zero search results and FAQ schema that you see and Google surfacing more content in its search results page. As, as a whole the Jason, I'd be really interested to kind of hear what you think about this as well,

Jason (00:25:19):

The whole content on Google search, getting the answer on Google SERP and not sending the user through to the website. Is it a phenomenally important question that we all need to start to address? And Google's motivation is multifold. I mean, there is the idea, and I think you're a hundred percent, right? They know they can deliver a good experience, therefore they can, they can say, well, if we don't have to take the risk of sending this person to a website, we won't do it. Also. The aim is the same as our aim, which is to best serve our clients as efficiently and as well as we possibly can. And if that means giving notes from the syrup for Google in that business, best interest, they need to serve their clients. So although it might be painful, it's also important to recognize the Google are just trying to make for a good experience for their users.

Jason (00:26:09):

Remember the people who are searching on Google, their users, they might be potentially your audience, but they remain Google's users who Google are trying to satisfy their Google's clients because Google makes money out of advertising to those users. So it it's painful and we need to figure out as marketers, how do we work around this? How do you, how do you work around the fact that Google is tending to show more results on the search? And one of them is in fact called web vitals. If, if you can prove that you're fast and the, the, the overall experience, the user will be better on your site. Personally, I see no reason that Google wouldn't send the user to that site, because once again, Google is trying to satisfy its users, make sure that they're happy. And as you said, if people are bouncing back off your site, that's a bad user experience from Google's perspective, it wants, it wants people to come to the site, get the response and not bounce back and then search for the same thing again, and go to somebody else or eventually get it on the site. Yeah.

Russ (00:27:10):

Yeah. And, and one thing I, that you mentioned there is a Google has been actively testing is, is a little indicator on the search result, right? You see this little kind of star icon sitting next to her results. This is something that, you know, Google has said, they're testing. They're not sure if they're gonna roll it out, but it's a clear indicator that, Hey, we think this is a, a good experience. And you can trust, you know, this, this site and it'll it'll load quickly for you,

Jason (00:27:34):

Which, which, I mean, the idea from that perspective is to say, you know, if you've got the choice between two and one of them has got the little light on, you're liable to click on the second one, which has a double effect, one of which is that the second one gets more traffic. And if you don't have the little icon potentially, you won't get as much traffic. But secondly, of course, that, that, that one that's getting more traffic will tend to push up the rankings because that's the one that's satisfying Google's users.

Russ (00:27:59):

It's, it's, it's, it's absolutely right. And it's just, I think it's, it's, it's kind of interesting to see how they're changing the SERP results, you know, based off of some of these factors and, and playing this in, obviously it's also a ranking factor on the site. So if your site is higher, you're going to score higher. It is not the biggest ranking factor. It's there, there's obviously things that are going to be way more important, but, but that also is going to just play into, you know, where you're positioned in those, in those search results as well.

Jason (00:28:25):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think kind of ranking factors, the, the, the whole concept is it's incredibly, it's important in the sense that we need to think about what affects the ranking, but Google and being, I mean, I talked to the guys at bang about how, how their whole system works, which is reasonably similar to how Google would function in terms of their algorithm. And it's all machine learning. It, isn't people writing lines, lines of code, say, if this has called web vitals, it can be higher. It's a machine analyzing masses and masses and masses of real time data to understand what will give the best user experience to Google's users. So kind of the idea of factors is less ranking factors, but how is the machine perceiving the user experience, both on the syrup and on your site and it's machines analyzing this at a scale that we can't begin to imagine. Yeah.

Russ (00:29:20):

Yeah. I think, I think that's, that's, that's important to call out and kind of what you're getting at, I think is also the intent factor behind the search, right? Google is looking to interpret the intent of the search and deliver the right experience based on, on that intent. And as, as a, you know, as a, you know, there, there's a lot of different intents out there, and theoretically, they're going to return a local results from their local pack. If it's a low, if they interpret it as a local intent and local is a perfect example of one of those positions, zero results where they're, they're taking over those results and just delivering the content immediately. Yeah.

Jason (00:29:56):

Really quickly coming back to, if anybody's wondering how can call web links, rules affect ranking if nobody's actually writing it in through, into the actual algorithm. It's because Google has informed the machine that this is one of the aspects that should be looking at. So basically what they do is they say to the machine, here are the aspects you should be looking at. Here's all the data, here's a set of mathematical formulas that you can use to calculate that. And every time the machine makes a decision, it is trying to figure out the best solution in that specific situation for the intent of the user that it has perceived. And what Google and do is feed all the data back in saying, this was good. This was bad. You make the right decision here. You make the wrong decision here. So that you've got corrective data being pushed back into the machine. And you've got reassuring data or confirmation data, which means the machine says, okay, these two cases, I've got that one wrong. That one, right next time, I'll go more down this path. So you have the machine, which is constantly learning. So as call web cycles become more common and more commonly how can we say respected by websites? The more important I would imagine they would become in that calculation?

Russ (00:31:09):

I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I think that's really important, Jason. Shall we jump into some kind of Q and a here? Actually we, we do have the topic of kind of what we think is the long-term impact or why battles one last topic here and we'll, we'll jump into our Q and a, you know and you were covering just kind of your, your initial kind of thoughts on this. You know, I think what I would add from a long-term perspective is, is that one, you know, I think we will see core web vitals continue to evolve as well. I think Google is getting much better at how they measure these specific experiences on top of a website. So we've already started to see Google evolve, the CLS metric a little bit in the past month or so they've come out and actually said, great.

Russ (00:32:02):

In the past we were measuring CLS based on the total layout, the total shifts that happened on the page and kind of the, the related movement. But now we're going to actually chunk that out into different segments, because we know that, you know, roughly there's like these five seconds, you know, segments where most of it's going to happen and we're going to try and average it across these different segments. And they're trying to just be more accurate with it and more reliable with, with these metrics as they roll them out. So I think one, you'll see an evolution of these. And then I think Google will probably also maybe remove and add more as they get better at this, you know, core web vitals is really just, you know, their, their start of trying to understand a lot of these. And so I think this, this is going to be something to, to continue to evolve and, and continue to will, will change over time. And I would watch for this actually at Google IO, I'm willing to bet they're going to announce some type of update to core web vitals there that later this month.

Jason (00:32:59):

So, right. Yeah, no, I think that's an incredibly important point about core web vitals that it will evolve and it will change as Google get better and learn more just as everything within the Google algorithm has evolved over the years. And one thing that I found interesting, I did a diet seminar at Google France, and they went through how the, basically what happened is they had the ambition to do what they're doing today. 20 years ago. They just didn't have the technology to do it. So they develop the technology to be able to do big data machine learning and, and really work at scale and understand all of this stuff. So Google is a constantly developing the technology to be able to do what it already intended to do, which is deliver the best user experience to its users, given their intent and their given situation at any one moment.

Russ (00:33:53):

Okay. I absolutely couldn't agree more. Great. So let's, let's jump into some, some questions. We have a bunch of questions to kind of get to really want to thank everyone for joining. We will send out a replay, really think Jason for being a part of this as well and agreeing to, to, to, to be here with us. And so I'm going to jump right into questions here. Jeff Kahlenberg is asking the most important thing I would like to know is what is due to doing and how's it going to improve due to site performance really, really going for it for the tough questions right off the bat there. So, so I think, you know, what I would say, right, right off the bat here is that Duda is investing quite a bit of time in core web vitals as a whole.

Russ (00:34:38):

We, we have a whole kind of, part of our engineering team. That's focused on improving scores across the board. And actually some data I can share from our internal metrics is we've seen about a 50% improvement of CLS. Since January 1st on across all of our websites, we've seen a 40% improvement in LCP scores across all of our websites since January 1st. And then we don't have much improvement on the FID score because actually most websites do really well on FID already. It's something like 97% of sites pass FID. And so we we're, we're not as focused on that one where you don't really have improvement to show on the last one, but what do does really investing in is, is what we are finding the biggest causes of these issues and we're focusing on it. And the one thing I'll call out here cause this, I think is a confusing thing for a lot of do to customers is we are focused really solely on the web vitals metrics and less all of the lighthouse metrics or the page speed insights metrics.

Russ (00:35:45):

And so sometimes what you'll see is, is, you know, we get a high score on you know, or we get a low score on maybe a lighthouse or a page feed where it's like a 50 or 60, but the reality is, is often those things are going to pass the core web vitals tests as, as part of it. And so a lot of the, the recommendations in the page speed tests are just that the recommendations and their opportunities. And so I think guys, we're going to be introducing some kind of help material here in the future to kind of give some guidance for our customers too, of how they can improve this on their own too. Yeah.

Jason (00:36:20):

Wonderful. Sorry. I had a question which was, can you go as far as to say that people who've used Duda don't need to worry so much about all those tasks because due to actually looking after the really fundamental stuff,

Russ (00:36:32):

It's a good question. I would say like the answer is like 80% yes. To that. Where we're, we're doing a lot of the things automatically and we're, we're implementing a lot of the best practices out of the box, but the reality is, is, you know, we, we're a flexible platform and a flexible tool. And, you know, we, we don't have a hundred percent control over the final websites. You know, if somebody comes and includes their own Google like Google tag manager script or their own, you know, website with like mapping bed, those things are gonna slow down the site and, you know, due to it doesn't have control over those types of things. And so there are some best practices that you can do on your own to avoid these slowdowns and really improve the site as a whole. But there's also a lot that dude is kind of doing out of the box to, to just improve this. And so it's not as easy as a, as a yes or no answer. I'd love to say yes, but it's not the case. Yeah.

Jason (00:37:21):

It does come back to saying what I was saying about WordPress early on is the closer you stick to the call. The less likely you are to have problems. And the more you guys can actually deal with this for people.

Russ (00:37:31):

Yeah. Yeah. The next question we have here is from Benjamin Lutz following the measurement of all these fancy trending Java based websites should have a sh they sh, sorry, I'm gonna start this question over following the measurement of all those fancy training, Java based websites should have a crazy bad ranking because it's, it always has a slow loading time. Is that your experience, Jason, I'm curious if you have a lot of experience with kind of some of these little more heavy JavaScript based sites,

Jason (00:38:04):

The great deal of experience with the heavy JavaScript websites. But in fact with, I mean, if I were building a JavaScript website, obviously you need to load the library, the JavaScript library, but if you want to be smart, you would load a small library that does the big picture. It shows the user something allows them to interact with the page, make sure nothing moves when the big chunk comes behind and actually builds the page around that. But that becomes relatively complicated. But the other thing about JavaScript rendered sites is you would tend to want to do server-side rendering. You would render the entire page on the server and deliver it as HTML, which makes it very fast. So that kind of, if you're still delivering all the JavaScript to the browser and then getting that to render in the browser, you're probably suffering already.

Russ (00:38:53):

Yeah. Abs absolutely. This is, you know, this is one of those weird, weird kind of trends across the web where, you know, a lot of developers use these heavy JavaScript libraries because they're easy to use and they're, they're easy to implement and they're, they're now kind of part of the modern tool belt of a developer. And the reality is that either they're not great for speed and they really can slow down the site, especially that all important kind of first load experience like you're saying. And then, you know, further that, that, that a lot of these tools, they don't take into account speed as, as the performance and kind of core thing from, from the initial, they're also not all that SEO friendly as well, and they cause problems on that side.

Jason (00:39:36):

Sure. Yeah. I mean, the more you put in, I mean, I like to tell them bells and whistles, every time you put in a battle or a whistle, you're always going to be handicapping yourself to some extent, so you need to choose your bells and whistles very carefully.

Russ (00:39:53):

That's very true. That's very

Jason (00:39:54):

True. 

Russ (00:39:56):

Great. I'm going to jump on to the to, to the next question here. Rebecca is asking how do we communicate to clients that lighthouse reports are necessarily reliable if they score so low?

Jason (00:40:11):

Ooh, one thing that, that strikes me about lighthouse, I keep seeing people post on Twitter. Oh, I've got 99% on lighthouse and they've spent the last five days going from 90 to 95% person. I mean, it's great. And it's one of those satisfying things that you think, yes, I've already done it or I've got a hundred percent, but in fact it truly is that the last 5% of the work takes 80% of the time. So you have to also balance out how much time, how much resources am I putting into this for how much the benefit on the other side. And I really trite replied to that would be maybe once you've hit 70, you should start thinking about your content again.

Russ (00:40:57):

I actually think that's, that's great. That's great guidance 70 on, on, you know, the, the lighthouse score is actually a really, really solid score to have.

Jason (00:41:05):

I was being over ambitious already once you've hit 50, but the thing is saying, don't just focus on that, make sure you're still making the great content that people actually want to see because you can have the fastest site in the world. If your content doesn't address the problems and the needs of your audience, they're not going to come anyway. Google's not going to show the content because it doesn't correspond to the user intent. So having the fast website is great, but having the fat fast website will only really serve you if you have the great content to back it up,

Russ (00:41:38):

Abs absolutely right. You, you, you, this is what, this is what we talked about of kind of that trade-off of prioritizing. What's going to be the most impactful. You, you obviously don't want to stop your content production or your page production engine and getting, you know, relevant information back on your site to influence those search results in the first place. And, and you need to have that, that priority back in place. And, you know, I think if, if you're, if you are in that scenario, just like you're describing spending, you know, five days to get the last, you know, 5% out of the lighthouse score you're, you're gonna be wasting a lot of time and prioritizing that probably in the wrong places as a whole. And it's probably a good, probably a good guidance to say that if you're in the 60, 70, you know, range that yeah, you should really just be focusing on improving the back the, the core experience of the site and the content on the site to focus on the right search search results that you want to optimize for.

Jason (00:42:33):

I'm really enjoying about the cold wet vinyls is the fact that you can say for climb, this is the big, the big chunk of content that Google perceives as being important. This is actually what people find satisfying when they see that big image or the form that they needed to fill in when it actually appears they go, I'm satisfying. That's good. That's the content. And so we're really focusing on the user and not the pure speed. And I think we need to reiterate that the core web vitals are about perceived performance and user experience. It's part of the speed scenario, but it really is user experience and perceived speed as opposed to PSP.

Russ (00:43:13):

Absolutely. great. I'm going to jump into the next question here. It's a dude's specific question, but I'm going to try and relate it back kinda more broadly to the industry here. The way that due to flashes custom fonts in the platform, is this an issue for performance or core web vitals? As a whole, a lot of Duda sites are kind of do this flash loading of a font and this can impact kind of visual stability as a whole. And you know, Rebecca is asking like, what do you, what do you recommend to improve this? And this actually is a bigger problem across the entire industry today where, you know, any type of custom font you're using on your website needs to load usually after, you know, the page loads. So what, what you see happen is, you know, a font loads and then the custom follows and it updates.

Russ (00:44:02):

And actually that causes a lot of CLS issues today on websites because that the content is shifting around. Right, right. In front of you. You know I, you know, this actually there, there's not an easy answer to a lot of this too, within the web today. With the way one of the, I think one of the things that I think is really difficult about the CLS score is that it, it is counterintuitive to the way the web works. So CLS is saying, great, don't shift content around, but when you load an image on a page that image causes CLS because the image doesn't immediately load and has to load after the fact. And so this is just the way the web works and you need to change your development style to impact CLS as a whole. And, and so web fonts are, are very similar to that where any type of font you're loading can cause that, so, you know, there's a few recommendations. One is one is that you can apply a custom dimension to the paragraph or the container that has the actual text in it. So that once it loads it doesn't shift at all, it just, it fills in more with that custom font essentially. That's, that's one thing you can do across the board. Jason, I don't know if you're familiar with this kind of problem.

Jason (00:45:22):

Yeah. what I always do with my clients is say, how important is that customer truly to your business? And the answer is often not very we think, Oh, it's got to be perfect. And this comes back to the bells and whistles. Aren't there. I think you need to sit back and analyze and say, what is fundamentally important and what is just me being fussy and wanting absolute perfection. And I don't like the word compromise, but I do like the word balance. You need to balance user experience, business goals, what Google likes, bring it all together and make a web page that actually satisfies all three, as well as you possibly can. You don't want to fully satisfy Google because if you're going to do that, you're probably not going to be satisfying for your business goals. If you're only satisfying your business goals, you're probably losing out with Google and you use a come somewhere in the middle. I think if, if I've just done it, you've got Google, you've got business goals or yourself in the middle, you've got the user. The user is probably the best judge of where that balance lies. And I find it difficult to believe that the specific font you wanted in a page is going to significantly change that user's opinion of you.

Russ (00:46:40):

I, yeah, I, I, I'm being...

Jason (00:46:42):

Grumpy old, man. In fact, don't use...

Russ (00:46:47):

The way I will. There's some truth to what you're saying with just the fact that there's no way around a font loading slowly. It's, it's just, it's just, it's just the fact of the web and having that flash or the shift, you know, Google has a way of what they call this is the technical way to do. What's called a, you know, a font swap, which is a little nicer, and it's not quite of a jump that, that kind of like loads it in there, but it's still a change in, in font. And the only way to avoid that is to use system fonts by default, you know, go back to your Helvetica is your aerials, your times new Roman what's ever included on, you know, the, the, the local computers across the board. Those are the things that won't have those problems kind of going forward.

Russ (00:47:35):

Due to we, you know, I'm going to talk about data here again, cause this is where my experience comes in. We, we actually do try and solve some of this. We, as part of that process, I talked about a little while ago where we scan the site and generate the above the fold styles. We actually try and embed the custom fonts in that kind of style set. And so that means that the fonts load as part of the original page load, and they don't need to download as a second response. Now, this is not practical for every use case. If you're using many different custom fonts, it's not going to work because you're going to have a huge amount of custom pump that just can't be loaded that way. And so we try and solve for some of this, but, but it's not, it's not possible. And you know, the recommendation is always to limit and prioritize exactly what you're saying of if this is important, let's go with one, let's make it that really custom font and let's, let's do it. But if it's not, let's, let's go a different direction. And let's, let's find a comp let's find a balance like you say and, and make it work. Yeah.

Jason (00:48:35):

I, I find every time I say compromise, the clients, they freak out because compromise is sound like something negative, whereas a balance sounds incredibly positive. So it is really same word, same idea, find a balance. You can't win on every single front. You need to find where the right level is for each one. And once again, I'll say it again, because I think it's quite a nice concept. The user is probably always right.

Russ (00:49:00):

Absolutely. I think, I think that's right. Cool. I'm going to jump onto our next question here. For Margaret, do you think Google is using the user experience aspect to force more advertising across the board? I'm curious what you think here, Jason, more.

Jason (00:49:19):

Advertising in terms of, on the SERP?

Russ (00:49:23):

Yeah, I think it, I think if I understand the question that they're, they're trying to get people to, to essentially use Google more and be able to display more advertising. So is it, is this, you know, part of a strategy from Google to, to continue to improve kind of the core search results so they can sell more ads across the web?

Jason (00:49:44):

I think Google's aim is always to sell more ads, but in fact, part of their business model is now moving towards kind of moving towards that idea of being Amazon and being able to actually sell products. So it's not ad so much. So I wouldn't suggest my opinion is that Google are not going to rely on ads forever because it's not a balanced business model. I talked to Gennaro, co-founder from word left, who does he reads financial statements from companies trying to, and what their business model is and where they're likely to go next. And he was saying that Google's business model Facebook's model is even worse. It's completely lopsided towards advertising and it's probably not sustainable. They're going to have to find different solutions. So I don't think they're obsessing about it, that they're actually looking for other openings and that what they're doing is actually simply trying to drive once again, user experience so that their users remain faithful to them because what they want to do is retain their user base so that when they do develop their business model in different ways, they've got still got this vast 90% market share.

Jason (00:50:50):

So from that perspective, I, I think kind of if, if, if I were to play devil's advocate, I would say their aim is the same as yours satisfying their users, keeping their users, maintaining that clients, keeping them long-term.

Russ (00:51:09):

Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I think, I think you're right. I don't have much, much to add. I think that's, that's spot on, in my opinion,

Jason (00:51:16):

Right? Oh, I was talking to Nathan Charmaz from being who's the whole page algorithm guy. And basically what you have is the different algorithms it's same at Google. They, they, they build what the, what the algorithms think is going to be the perfect result. But then they have a whole page algorithm that comes on top that says, actually, that's not going to be good user experience. So it will juggle things around a little bit and make it a bit better. And one thing he said to me is they skim off an awful lot of ads because it simply doesn't serve user intent. Even though the advertiser is willing to pay a fortune, they won't give the ad. They won't show the ad because it doesn't serve the user and it will make them look foolish. They won't be serving the user and the user will then leave and go to the competition. I mean, obviously in Bing's case, it's a bit of a closer call than it is for Google, but however big your market share is you don't want to lose those users apps.

Russ (00:52:08):

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Jason (00:52:11):

Yeah. We've gone off code whereby for very little bit, but I mean, I think kind of business models. I mean, once again, coming back to that, I mean, when I've talked to Genaro for the first time about he's explained Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, and Google to me, and the business model is a phenomenally different and you can see where they came from, where they are and where they're going. And one thing that they all have in common, I mean, Microsoft is probably have got the widest variety of sources of income. Google is doing okay. Amazon is doing very well because of AWS, which has developed phenomenally Facebook is sitting on. It really is a one trick pony. And I'm terribly intrigued how that's going to all develop out.

Russ (00:52:57):

I agree. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's all the newsfeed today, right. You know, that's, that's where, that's where Facebook makes all this money that the newsfeed and Instagram ads that's, that's the, it's like 95% of their total revenue is coming from those two sources.

Jason (00:53:10):

Yeah. I mean, as a business, I mean, I'm a consultant. I wouldn't have nine and my 95% of my business coming from one client or one single idea. Yeah.

Russ (00:53:22):

I think, I think Google is about, as I recall from the last journey, it was about 70% of their revenue today is coming from, from ads. Across to that, I think that's what ad display ads and search ads that they're selling across the board, which, which, you know, obviously, and then YouTube is also a big growing aspect as well for them too. So yeah. Yeah.

Jason (00:53:46):

I think, I think they are diversifying and YouTube is a big chunk Google cloud with all the blue trying to compete with AWS. They haven't really met, matched it, but they were hoping to, but who knows they may manage it because the platform I actually use Google cloud. And I think it's brilliant. I much prefer to AWS. It's basically AWS for people who don't know how to code, which is great if you ask me. But yeah, I think Google are expanding of widening their, the portfolio of how to make money. And I don't think advertising is such a focus that they're going to blow their entire user base to sell a few more ads today.

Russ (00:54:25):

I think that's right. I think, I think there's looking to kind of incrementally improve here with, with kind of the core web vitals and, and that's, that's what we see in, and it's taken them, you know, seven years to really roll this out. Right. They've had, they've had some form of, you know, speed testing out there in the market for quite a while now. And this is the first time we have real metrics to measure from. And it's taken them quite a long time to get there. So, yeah.

Jason (00:54:50):

Brilliant. Wonderful.

Russ (00:54:51):

Yeah. cool. Then the next question is from Thomas is asking often lighthouse reports along CLS. But when I check it's invisible to the human eye, isn't Google overdoing it here from from a reporting perspective...

Jason (00:55:09):

I have that kind of trouble as well. Sometimes you say, I can't see anything move. But it isn't because you don't see it move that it didn't move on a 3g connection for somebody in India. And it isn't also because you didn't see it move that the machine hasn't perceived it to have moved. So there, you've got a couple of questions. One of which is remember that Google's measuring on a slow connection on a low powered machine. Number one, and number two, even if Google's wrong, it's the right, because it's making the decision. So, you know, yeah, Google might be wrong, might not be wrong. If you really want to please Google, you don't have much choice. You have to knuckle under.

Russ (00:55:52):

I think that's right. You know, one of the things we see, you know, Google measures this, they measure CLS in the browser when they load. And they're actually looking at what elements are shifting on the page. And it's very possible that it's something in the background that is not actually presently visible. They try and make it visible, but it's actually not. So sometimes there are these CLS that happen on the page that you just, you really can't see and, and just kind of don't exist. And so it's, it's, it's an interesting question of how Google is optimizing it. It's, it's incredibly difficult from a technology perspective to track correctly. And I think they're, you know, I think they're right a lot of the time, but there are those, those kinds of edge cases where they kind of have a false positive and it's almost, you know, and the reporting tools on exactly what the, what that thing that's causing. CLS can be hard to see a lot of times as well. You know, they have some stuff in their developer tools, but it's still not perfect to know what exactly made this change, what caused it to shift. And as this is loading, what came in that wasn't there before. It's really hard to actually figure out the exact details.

Jason (00:56:58):

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I think you made a third point that I completely masked, which is brilliant. And I, I would like to re reiterate, I didn't say you have to knuckle under to Google. I said, if you want Google to appreciate your content, it's their rules that they're making the rules up for their own game. You're playing that game and you need to abide by their rules. And as you said, even if it's a false positive, you still have to try to figure out why the machine is making that mistake, correct it on your end because the machine isn't going to correct for you. It's. It's very true. It's very true. Yeah.

Russ (00:57:32):

Great. the next question, I I'll, I'll do dig in on here as from Robert is, will core web vitals supersede backlinks from a priority perspective?

Jason (00:57:44):

Oh no. Ooh. I mean, backlinks are always going to remain important. I think kind of I'm, I'm one of these people who never really liked them very much in the first place. They've always been important. I don't like going out and asking people for lengths. I think it's kind of a bit of a bizarre kind of approach. But from a of the future of the web perspective, links are simply relationships between pages and the entire future of the web is built on Google's understanding of relationships between things, pages, people, organizations, products, places. So links in terms of the actual physical links between pages is slowly reducing and importance relative to the rest of it. But the idea of relationships is increasingly important and fundamentally important. And I would argue that core web vitals is relatively small fry compared to relationships. I agree.

Russ (00:58:44):

I, I completely agree. And, and you know, this, this is one of those things that, you know, if you, if you follow Rand, Rand, Fishkin, he talks about this in terms of, you know, he kind of thinks that Google is going to rely less on the link and more on kind of an attribution model of here's a sentence that's probably talking about this service. I'm going to give some type of credit back to that service and less so on kind of the technical link as an implementation more about the topic as a source of authority. And yeah, just one small thing. I completely agree with what you're saying. I think core web titles is a much lower priority on that stack from a relevance perspective. Well, I mean, what

Jason (00:59:22):

You're saying is incredibly important. It's like what, what we've been calling the link clicks link, which is a mansion or a topic or Google understanding that your com company, your website deals with a specific topic and could potentially bring a solution to its user. When they're looking into that topic is phenomenally important. And I had a very interesting experience. I mean, it's a bit geeky, but a friend of mine challenged me to create a profile page called Jason brand nerd instead of Jason Barnard. And I did it as a joke and within a week now, if you search Jason branded, it shows me, shows my website shows all my photos and on pages where I didn't even mention the term Jason Brando. So it has already understood within a week that Jason Brown node is a synonym for Jason Barnard. And the power of mention that becomes for me, incredibly clear that the power of mentioned the power of topic, the power of relationships between Jason Brown and Jason Barnard is incredibly powerful and we will become even more. So, yeah,

Russ (01:00:27):

That's, that's a really interesting kind of test you put out there. Sounds cool. Yeah.

Jason (01:00:34):

Well, it was a joke that kind of went out of hand, but it's been incredibly informative about how well Google, once it's understood an entity, which is me, I mean, I'm the brand SERP guy and I've re, I've worked seven years to get Google, to understand who I am, what I do and what, who my audience is. And that just demonstrates that those several years of work have paid off or are about to pay off. Yeah. So go white vitals. I hate to say this, but if you visit my site, I've got really bad school because I actually don't think in terms of my specific niche, they're important at all.

Russ (01:01:13):

It's very true. You, you could say that, you know, most of your visitors on desktop and you can, you can make that priority and just say, Hey, it's, it's less important for me. And I know that I would rather have my content and I'm also focusing not on, I'm not focusing on my website, I'm focusing on the actual brand service, which makes total sense for you. And you're prioritizing that for your business.

Jason (01:01:31):

Yeah. Also, sorry, I'm being a bit facetious by saying, well, I don't care, but actually it's just, I'm much more interested in doing experiments. Like the one with Jason Brandner than I am, I'm working in my co-ed vitals. And that will be a good example. I'm exactly not the kind of person who would spend five days trying to get from 70% to 95%. Yeah.

Russ (01:01:51):

Okay, great. And Jason, we're, we're running out of time here. I want to wrap up there's one quick thing I want to call out. There's a bunch of questions which we didn't get to that are about what can I do to improve my, do decide what can can I do to improve my score in the follow-up email, I'll make sure that we include some kind of support and help documentation that due to has related to this. So you guys can go, go through, we have a bunch of kinds of best practices that you guys can follow of, like do this, don't do that. Don't do this, don't do that type of recommendations. And so I'll, I'll send that out as, as part of our follow up email, just so those folks who aren't due to customers can, can get access and kind of read through that. Jason, is there anything else you wanna, you want to mention before we sign off here, I'm really appreciative of you coming in and joining us. And I think this was a really fun discussion.

Jason (01:02:40):

Yeah. I'd like to thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. A great deal. Talking about COVID vitals, a great deal of fun. You're a delightful and terribly knowledgeable chap. And thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. A great deal. Great.

Russ (01:02:55):

Thank you so much, everybody. And everyone have a good afternoon or good evening wherever you're based.

Jason (01:03:00):

Yeah. Thank you everybody.

— End Transcript —

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